I just read on another site that they are going to plow the Narrows C/L site to make way for more soccer feilds! Please tell me this isn't true! Any one know anything I googled it and found a news article that they are renovating but it didn't go into detail, this would be very bad.
Dwayne

Keep a handle on em!

Why wouldn't they? Soccer is a great baby sitter for kids of both sexes from 8-18. Mom's LOVE soccer!

Same crap around here............

See Ya

Peabody

www.gscb.us / www.richpeabody.com

hmmm perhaps the community wants the income generated by the 1000's of soccer moms and familys instead of the billions control line generates ?
I agree, any site being lost SUCKS, but, its not like they are targeting us, its money,

Mark Scarborough
After years of running round in circles at the Rat Race Now I run around in circles for fun, go figure

>...its money.
=================

...not to mention Demographics. Its location (South El Monte) has far more "futbol" adherents than model plane addicts.

Mike Keville

Not only do we continue to lose sites to soccer, a club I belonged to in the 80's lost one to a parking lot for a soccer field.

Well, here in Las Cruces we already have more soccer fields per capita than any similar sized city. So our model airplane flying fields were sacrificed for something of far great (fiscal) value: mobile home sales lots. When that need is sated, we can look at some more used car lots.

In Las Cruces, our CL flying fields were maintained for almost 50 years by the Mesilla Vallely Model Airplane Club. They were part of the Branson estate which was donated to the city on the proviso that it could only be used for a recreational area or to support the library. MVMAC (Bill Melton while he was alive and later John Womak) irrigated, seeded, and mowed the three grass circles. And picked up the trash, and cleaned the areas, and also groomed the parking lot. (And repaired the divots and picked up golf balls..)

Our illustrious city politicians first got the bright idea that MVMAC needed to pay the water bill for the last decade, around $8K (seeing as how MVMAC was USING the water, to irrigate that area, a public park..). When MVMAC got loose from that obligation, it surrendered all association with the fields. And our brilliant politicians, after years of being uninterested in selling the property (seeing as how the money would go to the library and not into the city coffers), figured it out.

The property was sold, the money turned over to Branson Library, and the city funding of the library reduced accordingly (for one year).

So, Las Cruces now has another much needed mobile home lot!

Money talks!

L.

"It's like finding a haystack full of needles." -Leo Rosten

I think "we're building soccer fields" is politician code for "we're doing something about the fat kids who eat Twinkies, play video games, and don't go outside to exercise anymore".

It all sounds good to everybody, so they build the fields and pat each other on the back.

It is confusing, though, since there's an awful lot of empty soccer fields around where I live. Kids never seem to use them, or if they do, it's pretty rare. I guess they're still eating Twinkies and playing video games.

Fortunately, since they're empty, I just take my planes to the soccer fields and fly them there.

Not plowed under yet! The local C/L, R/C and Tether Car groups are very actively involved with the responsible government entities. In this time of severe money crunch, it doesn't make sense to move our circles. The resident blue herrons feast on gophers in the "wetlands" where we are located so they might be our best friends. Stay tuned!

Had my first chance to fly there last month at the Mackey Open. What a great site! Please let us out-of-towners know what we can do to help. Write letters, email, phone calls, whatever. I'd hate for my first time to be my last time at the Narrows.

Clint
Finding new ways to screw up the pattern since 1993!

Can you all remember when we lost Mile Square Park to another Golf Course. They only had 3 in the park at the time. The government said they would get us another place to fly. We are still waiting.

Dennis

A ? fortunate ? accident may play in, here, for the excellent Christopher Columbus/Silverbell site at Tucson. We are downwind, about half the time, from a large municipal sewage treatment plant. That MAY deter housing developers as much as the current (temporary, I hope) slump in new home building.

New home developments have 'eased' north from Grant Road over the past 10-15 years, but - I hope - the nose knows.

I, for one, can put up with some occasional stink from the East/Southeast, but then, again, I occasionally fly diesels. So, who am I to say...?

As with Las Cruces, it often takes a strong and respected person to present our case to the 'relevant authorities.' Bill M did a splendid job, and we miss him in part for that... there's much else among us, the CL fliers, and in his case, among New Mexican authorities: He created the profitable cultivation of alfalfa in the Las Cruces area, which did much for local communities...

The fish fable: Give a person a fish, and "he" can eat ONE meal. Teach that person to fish, and "he" can provide for "him"self and "his" family, sell "his" excess and provide livelihood for others. It all starts with a key individual who has an intro, and has the drive to benefit our small segment of a larger community.

Don't wait for some government agency to slide over to you and offer help - on their terms, not ours. That wouldn't happen, anyway...

We need individuals who have something of note to earn intros to the authorities, and the time and persistence to cash that in for us, and incidentally, for their communities...

Start there. See if anyone in your clubs or friendship circles can present us favorably, and convincingly, in comparison to the soccer moms, golfers, mobile home transients and whoever else might wish to profit from denying us that which we enjoy.

IMHO, anyway...

\BEST\LOU

I have fond memories of being at the Narrows- especially meeting up with my friend Santo to fly my B speed job.
Sure hope this site can be rescued- curious to know if AMA is fully engaged and how much this helps.
Lyle

Please let us out-of-towners know
>what we can do to help. Write letters, email, phone calls,
>whatever. I'd hate for my first time to be my last time at the
>Narrows.
Send all comments to fanderson49@hotmail.com, and copy me jowrightpe@hotmail.com. Fred is compiling all comments from modelers in a "super document" that we hope will change the master plan. The final deadline is Dec 30, so get comments to us by Dec 25 so we will have time to compile.
Comments about damage to the environment will be particulary helpful. We have already provided pictures of a blue heron eating a gopher on the grass area in our field. Try having gopher holes on a soccer field!
Issues like this may be our more powerful arguements. Issues like "We have no place else to go" or "This isn't fair" will fall on deaf ears because this this the EIR phase of the project.
Politicians behind this project are the ones steamrolling it through. But even politicians must address the powerful environmental lobbies.
Happy Landings

John Wright

Behind our backs, a new"master plan" was developed showing model airplanes moved to a new location near power lines and an equestrian center. The consultants who drew this up were funded we think by the county supr. They have now been told about the problems with power lines and will consider that when they write the EIR, due in May. None of the projects in the master plan are presently funded. So our best hope may be time and money.

John Wright

John, is this the project? At least they include model airplanes!
See: http://www.visioningwhittiernarrows.org/visioningwhittiernarrows/Lets_Vision_Together/Lets_Vision_Together.html

- Norm Furutani

Norm,
The link you found is outdated, from Oct 2008. At that point, there was no mention of moving the rifle range or model airplanes. The plan to move us was hidden from us while being developed by political interests, and then revealed after the plan was completed. It was first revealed on Nov 24, 2009 when they announced a 30 day comment period, Nov 30 to Dec 30. The master plan has a fatal (for C/L especially ) flaw, electrocution. But it looks as though the will spend tax money to analyze this flawed plan rather than revise it and then analyze it. When the EIR is accepted, flawed or not, then the project will be fully developed and funded.

John Wright

Don't know if this is only in Mississippi but could be similar in other states. In Mississippi, if government owned land is designated for use to and open to the public then the state can not change that status as long as the public is still using it for the status purpose.

Our local airport almost was closed by the city some years ago. This was one of the things that they used to legally fight for it to stay open. Certainly not the only reason but the airport is still there.

"Often Wrong" .... wife

In Mississippi, if government owned
>land is designated for use to and open to the public then the
>state can not change that status as long as the public is
>still using it for the status purpose.

Does anybody know California law? Help!

John Wright

Is the AMA going to be asked to get involved in this. Could not the soccer fields be relocate to where they want to put the modeling aera.

I've emailed the AMA. I need published documents defining the safe distance from power lines. The 2010 safety code says 50 ft, but the speed circles in Muncie are 1000 ft from their on-site power lines. So I informed WN that we must be 1000 ft from power lines, and they WN power lines are up to 220,000 volts, confirmed with SCE.
Haven't got much help from AMA yet. Drop deadline is Dec 30.

John Wright

Thanks for your effort on this, John. I was working the weekend of the visit to the field by the supervisors, did it go well? I read there was a woman of note that has a soft spot for our activity. Any reaction there?
Chris...

Chris McMillin

Has are district AMA V.P. been notified. Any word from him at all..

I went to Whitter Narrows many time in mid 80's/90's then Miles Square as it was closer. Whitter was neat as alot of action and great park. Local gang bangers ans low riders everyware but never had problem. We lost M/S in May 1998. Guess what? looks like W/N is next. Hope it works out and get to keep a great field.
Dan

Dankar

Man,losing Whittier Narrows would be horrible. I learned to fly there and spent many wonderful weekends.

Fred Anderson, speed flyer, organized a walk through of the model airplane park on Dec 6 with Park Supr and a project coordinator, Jane.
Jane had visited the park one Wednesday and assumed model airplanes was non existant. But on Dec 6 the Toys for Tots speed and racing event was going full tilt, along with the usual stunt, combat and sport flyers. Her attitude seemed to change, but after we flyers, R/C and U/C, packed the Dec 16 meeting to express our displeasure with the master plan, she said that we must be fair because we hadn't heard from the soccer folks. So she is clearly favoring soccer, who couldn't be bothered to attend the public meeting. And other than environmental issues (EIR), there is no forum established to challenge the master plan itself, with its built in electrocution hazard for U/C So unless we get some powerful political support, Whittier Narrows will eventually go the way of Mile Square.
The one bright spot is that California will be bankrupt before the project is shovel ready.
Does anyone have literature on the hazards of power lines and C/L flying?

John Wright

The AMA should be able to help.

Howard Rush
Bellevue, WA

It sounds like that the AMA does not want to be brothered. Other wise our district 10 VP would have stepped up to the plate by now. So much for the AMA.
John,didn't some one get jolted by flying near high tension wires in Long Beach. When the city out lawed model airplane flying in L.B. All the hobby shops seemed to go out of business over night. We had some real good ones back then.

> John,didn't some one get jolted by flying near high tension
>wires in Long Beach. When the city out lawed model airplane
>flying in L.B. All the hobby shops seemed to go out of
>business over night. We had some real good ones back then.
>

This sounds like a pretty good strategy on their part.

1, Move the flyers near the power lines.

2, Wait till someone gets killed.

3, Outlaw model airplanes.

4, Problem solved.


Larry, NorCal Circle Jerks

Back in the 50's, someone was killed by power lines at El Dorado park. Also another in Gardena in the late 60's. But I can't find any info on these accidents. Also no published matter on the hazards of power lines. SCE has clearance zones for their transmition lines, but nothing specific on model airplanes or control line.

John Wright

Of course the danger in putting emphasis on the electrocution hazard is that the city will just decide that there is too big a liability in continuing to maintain a C/L facility and completely remove it from the master plan. Still, it is a card that must be played.

Could another card be the C/L facility as a senior citizen recreation asset? How many users are in their 50's?, 60's? 70's? even 80's? Probably not a very strong card as most have lived in the area all their lives, have or had productive jobs, served in the military, payed taxes, raised families etc. One certainly couldn't expect the city supervisors to grant any special consideration to this group of people...sorry, got carried away there.

>Does anyone have literature on the hazards of power lines and C/L flying<
That might be a question for the power company.
Al

I was not living there at the time and I am pretty much not living there now but at one time C/L flying was done in the parking lot of Cal-Expo in Sacramento. The unofficial site was very close to high voltage power lines. A flier was electrocuted there when flying at this site when an arc traveled from the lines to his plane.

As a result ALL control line was prohibited within the city limits of Sacramento City, with the exception of one park, a site which is seldom used (a story in itself). I think this happened in the late 80's. I will see if I can find any further documentation but I have heard this from people who were there that it happened.

I wonder if (if the story is true) whether the family sued.

Alan

Alright, no one else will say it, so I will.

The area where Whittier Narrows is located is smack in the midst of one the the largest concentrations of Hispanic populations in Los Angeles. Their national pasttime is "Futbol", also known as Soccer.

Those folks spend countless hours kicking a round ball around, trying to punt it past a goal-keeper.

Boring, yes (to us), yet exciting to those from Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, Panama, etc. South El Monte is heavily populated with folks from those nations. Is it any wonder that so-called "soccer" fields might be more popular among the residents than model airplane facilities?

I do not mean to be racist, anti-Hispanic or anything else. (Fact is, I'm a social liberal.) Nonetheless, politicians representing South El Monte are bound to serve the wishes of their constituants.

Don't bother flaming me for these thoughts. I, too, will miss the use of Whittier Narrows if it comes to that. But anyone with any degree of common sense will realize that the local populations in South El Monte would rather have "Futbol" than Controline....and that their local politicians would be well-advised to heed those wishes if they want to continue holding office.

Mike Keville

>Alright, no one else will say it, so I will.
>
>The area where Whittier Narrows is located is smack in the
>midst of one the the largest concentrations of Hispanic
>populations in Los Angeles. Their national pasttime is
>"Futbol", also known as Soccer.
>
>Those folks spend countless hours kicking a round ball around,
>trying to punt it past a goal-keeper.
>
>Boring, yes (to us), yet exciting to those from Mexico, El
>Salvador, Guatemala, Panama, etc. South El Monte is heavily
>populated with folks from those nations. Is it any wonder
>that so-called "soccer" fields might be more popular
>among the residents than model airplane facilities?
>
>I do not mean to be racist, anti-Hispanic or anything else.
>(Fact is, I'm a social liberal.) Nonetheless, politicians
>representing South El Monte are bound to serve the wishes of
>their constituants.
>
>Don't bother flaming me for these thoughts. I, too, will miss
>the use of Whittier Narrows if it comes to that. But anyone
>with any degree of common sense will realize that the local
>populations in South El Monte would rather have
>"Futbol" than Controline....and that their local
>politicians would be well-advised to heed those wishes if they
>want to continue holding office.
>
>Mike Keville

Thank God for someone with the courage and honesty to speak the truth.
Thanks Mike.

As a friend of Mike's I can vouch for the fact that he definitely is not a bigot but simply speaks the truth.

Politics is what it is and politicians cater to the majority of their voting constituents.

Randy Cuberly

He Mike Wanna run for President...I'll vote for you.

>He Mike Wanna run for President...
==========================================

Not on your life, baby! (But thanx for your support.)

Then again, I might be willing. We'd need a support chest of millions, not to mention a whole bunch of people willing to find other jobs, since most of them would be fired as soon as I took office.

Mike Keville

?
>
>I do not mean to be racist, anti-Hispanic or anything else.
>(Fact is, I'm a social liberal.) Nonetheless, politicians
>representing South El Monte are bound to serve the wishes of
>their constituants.
>
>Don't bother flaming me for these thoughts. I, too, will miss
>the use of Whittier Narrows if it comes to that. But anyone
>with any degree of common sense will realize that the local
>populations in South El Monte would rather have
>"Futbol" than Controline....and that their local
>politicians would be well-advised to heed those wishes if they
>want to continue holding office.
>
>Mike Keville

Well put Mike,

I usually travel to the Southland about three time a year to fly at the Narrows. It is true, the majority of the local population is in fact hispanic. NOTICE MY HISPANIC SURNAME. Mike's prior post should not in any way be taken out of context as being racist!
What he posted is factual and 100% right on the money.
The local polititions will cater to their constituants and the modelers will be left high and dry. Its the way politics work.

Larry, NorCal Circle Jerks

It's most likely why the AMA does not want to get involved.
Good old fasion politics

I would point out that in "Hispanic" countries (Brazil, Argentina to name two), control line seems to be doing pretty well. Maybe we should recruit the locals in El Monte.

My guess is that if it was the R/C field that was threatened the AMA would be getting involved. Since we are on talking about hispanic folks and model aviation, would a letter of support from FAI F2B team member Orestes Hernandez be possible? Would it help? If nothing else he could point out that folks from latin american countries do more than just play "futbol". I've never met the man but I bet he would oblige if asked.

Then there is the old arguement "how many youth soccer players grow up to be professional soccer players (about "0"). How many young people who are involved in model aviation go on to pursue a career in the aviation field? (lots!).

Well, I have just surmised that the R/C field was threatened and that there may be a positive outcome to this controversy. Hopefully the AMA can be put on notice that their support may be needed in case this issue ever rears its ugly head again. Also I guess I should put my RSM Mackey Lark back in the building sequence so I can have a plane for the Mackey contest next year. Merry Christmas!

Actually, though I'm not involved in the defense, I've flown and competed at Whittier Narrows in the past. The RC field is adjacent, and just on the north side of the CL field.

There must be at least 30 soccer fields at the site currently. Removing the flying fields for both RC and CL would add about 6 more soccer fields, if my memory serves.

The layout required a covered walkway when the powers that be established a path to the river area for the naturalists, and bird watchers, to protect them from errant models that would be flying over them.

It seems that there are plenty of soccer fileds at the park. Perhaps there are ather reasons they have decided to try and eliminate models from the park. Could it be that the majority of pilots are "Gringos"?

I'm wondering why everything is spinning around?

John Miller

I just got a very positive email "WE MAY HAVE WON ONE!" that the planners were very impressed with the response from the rifle, R/C, CL and tether car enthusiasts and have decided that the flying and rifle range should be left as is. DID we win one? Time will tell, but so far so good.

To be a little cynical about it. Money talks, the soccer interests get an awful lot of people out there on the weekends. It was noted the soccer people were not a visible or vocal presence at the meeting with the planners. Could be they were just sizing up the opposition.

don Burke

Menifee, CA
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming, WOO HOO, What a Ride!

The latest recommendation is to leave the flying area, rifle range and tether car track in it's current location. The new soccer fields will go on the other side of Rosemead Blvd.

Hats off to Fred Anderson and crew!

- Norm

This seems like a typical problem with the stick and ball sports players. "We need more Soccer/Ball diamonds!!" If one where to go to the existing fields everyday for a whole week, and observe the use of them, they would find that for the most part that they are empty. we have gone through this several times with the Buder Park in St. Louis County. There have been several letter writing campaigns over the years and what I usually point out is that the problem is not in the number of fields, but in how they are utilized. It seems that everyone one wants their son or daughter to play at a time that is convenient for them, usually a Friday night or Saturday afternoon, and they just have to make the point that everyone can't play or practice at the same time. I would bet that on any given day at the Whittier that some one is probably flying something, and no one isplaying soccer, and I would invite the "powers that be" out to observe that also. While there may be many more soccer players, I'll bet that they only actually use the facility 10% of what the other activities are through the week. Just my thoughts on the issue.
Sounds like, though, you have made some impression on them and some progress. Good luck on it in the future.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
Dan McEntee

Type at you later

Thanks John Wright, Ron Duly and all those in SoCal who are working to find a solution to this potential problem.

I for one truly appreciate your efforts and diligence as you ignore the usual flock of naysayers and complainers to explore solutions that are creative and effective.

Whittier Narrows is a very special and magical place for me and many, many more.

P.T. Granderson

>Thanks John Wright, Ron Duly and all those in SoCal who are
>working to find a solution to this potential problem.
>
>I for one truly appreciate your efforts and diligence as you
>ignore the usual flock of naysayers and complainers to explore
>solutions that are creative and effective.
>
>Whittier Narrows is a very special and magical place for me
>and many, many more.
>
>P.T. Granderson

This is an angle to the situation that may come in handy in future dealings, the longevity and history of the facility. I'll bet among the fraternity of modelers in SoCal you could put together a very strong power point presentation of photos, old articles and such from over the years to point out what a special place it is. Like how many national or world record flights have taken place there. The history of the tether cars! I've never been there, but been around long enough and know enough of the guys that fly there that it's on my list of "Places I want to fly at!"
Dan McEntee

Type at you later

Delighted to hear the field may be saved , big thanks to all the modeling community for there hard work .

Bill Barber

Bravo and well done, but this will come up again. They should try and have INS agents at city planners meetings.
Dan

Dankar

Sorry I got into this thread so late; but the outcome looks "ok" at this point. I too flew at the narrows in the late 60's early 70's before getting tied up with job, wife and kids.

In reading the complete thread I think our AMA District President and AMA leadership in general needs to have their feet head to the fire! Yes, I realize C/L is not the "money" group in AMA, but we are here, and do pay our dues. If AMA leadership can't do anything for us, why ARE we paying the same dues as R/C?

In an area the size of the greater LA area there is no excuse for city/county goverments to not leave us some space.

How many times have I driven past a golf course, tennis-basketball-handball courts, baseball-football-soccer fields and seen them only sparsly occupied. There are many that are simply under used.

Brian

Brian,
The issue is not about control line versus R/C in this case. The aeromodeling area at Whittier Narrows has both--and the last version of the proposed Master Plan showed both being relocated to make room for more soccer fields. As far as AMA participation, it seems local members are the best able to both be aware of upcoming issues and to deal with them, with perhaps the AMA providing some advice from prior experience in other situations.

We have heard that the planners intend to alter the location of the new soccer fields, but I have not seen a revised plan yet. (This is not unexpected; the last scheduled published version was posted in November.) We are also waiting for the release of the environmental impact report. If I recall correctly, this was scheduled for March of 2010. We will know once we see those two documents what the Ad Hoc committee will likely recommend to the Army Corps of Engineers, who own/administer the land.

The appearance of use is also misleading. Most folks choose to participate in leisure activities on the weekends. So most facilities look underused unless the survey is thorough. The control line fields empty out when the wind comes up--and then they look unused. The RC car enthusiasts keep noticing the same things when they look for a dedicated facility.

Dave "McSlow" Hull
LA_Flyer